Tuesday, May 19, 2009

John Piper On Mark Driscoll's Speech and His Differences With John MacArthur

The following audio is taken from the 2009 Basics Conference at Parkside Church, Cleveland. Also, related, I posted an exclusive video sent to me by Phil Johnson of Mark Driscoll responding to Phil's letter of criticism. You can watch that HERE.

21 comments:

Jon Wymer said...

Where is this audio from?

Rev. said...

FYI - This is actually from the Basics Conference 2009 (held at Parkside Baptist Church in Cleveland, OH). The only reason I know is that I was there.

Jonathan said...

Great, thanks for the clarification!

Matt Troupe said...

Jonathan, thanks for posting this. It is always good to here it from the horses mouth :-)

Jonathan said...

Matt, you're welcome! Blessings to you dear brother!

Tim Todd said...

Thanks for the edit Jonathan.

Disappointed.

Important Caveat: Time was very short, and John Piper may have hinted that he has more to say.

Piper sympathized with the temptation to use an inappropriate word to create an affect & noted an occasion where he (John Piper) had to repent. That said, Piper isn’t known for and doesn’t have a reputation for coarse jesting, but Driscoll is and does and hasn't repented.

My concern with Piper's initial response was that holiness was minimized (though it was noted) and pragmatism seemed to be highlighted. Piper's basic argument was that: 1) he thinks Driscoll is growing and 2) he cuts him more slack because he is accomplishing things and reaching people that no one else is.

Piper wasn't convincing in his explanation of (1) as I explain below and (2) seemed out of character with Piper's soteriology and ecclesiology.

Piper did seem to acknowledge that Driscoll does have speech that needs to be cleaned up or that is dirty.

However Piper said he thinks Driscoll is growing because he responded to Piper’s email by removing the Edinburgh SoS message from Resurgence & by requesting it be removed from two other locations & because MD’s later teaching on SoS was more acceptable.

This wasn't convincing to me as taking a message off a website & limiting one’s coarse jesting and lewd talk (coarse talk and lewd jesting was still a part of the later message, it just wasn't as much a part of the message) on a passage isn’t repentance. True growth should include repentance which includes acknowledging that one was wrong in addition to turning from the wrong behavior.

Piper also hasn't yet addressed pertinent passages (Eph 4:29; 5:4–5, 1 Thes. 4:7, & Titus 2:6–8, etc) and how they apply or don't apply. This appears to be more the heart of the issue.

I think that not speaking about 1 Timothy 5:17-21 and these other verses and how they relate or don't relate to the issue could end up having a negative impact in other important areas (i.e. church discipline, public rebuke of an elder who continues in sin, and the holiness of the church).

Hoping this is a major part of the "look for more to come".

Doesn’t make sense to me yet, but I do love John Piper and his preaching and am praying for wisdom for him and I hope in God. God is good!

Jonathan said...

Tim,

From what I gather, John will post something on the DG blog about this whole issue. If that time comes, you can be sure John will be very calculated in what all he says and chooses not to say.

I actually appreciate the fact that he is seeking to be "redemptive" with MD by working with him over time. I think it is precisely because of that patience that MD respects John so much (like a Dad as he said) so that when he rebuked him for something MD was quick to respond.

The fact that he did respond seems to be an evidence of grace, and testimony to the fact that John is having an effective influence in his life.

As I look at the whole situation, and the relationship that has been forged there, I am left quite encouraged by the whole thing.

Steven Kippel said...

I would have to disagree with Piper on the point where he said Driscoll's theology is spot on. He is correct in a lot of things, but he's also very wrong in other areas. His willingness to bring bloodsport into the Church, and his marginalizing women in worship are the two main qualms I have with him.

I would have to pick a bone with Piper over the effectiveness of Driscoll's ministry as well, but Apostle Paul answers me. Paul quested the motives of some people, but they were bringing some to Christ.

I'm worried that people are drawn to Driscoll for his personality, and it seems like Driscoll love the attention and is very cocky as a result of the attention. As long as Christ is glorified, I give him the room, but if it turns into a cult of personality, it's dangerous.

Larry Parker said...

Interesting discussion. I posted part of the arguments on my blog at larryparker.org
My thoughts are if you invite all ages into your service of worship, you need to be mindful of the young ears who are being trained by their parents to not use bad language. We shouldn't have to put parental guidance ratings on sermons.

bridgetwillard said...

Thanks.

MRWBBIII said...

JOHN PIPER ON MARK DRISCOLL SERMON JAM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJmkk1XjrGw&feature=channel

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